JULY 2021

In July, Doc finally finished responding to the summons from the Tallahassee lawyer, James Waczewski, also known on YouTube as Mentour Lawyer, who wanted to see Hyrah and Skynnah in Madagascar with their maternal grandmother rather than living the American life with their paternal uncle and aunt in Nebraska. After that, Doc started to focus on his 3.850 appeal, a post-conviction motion and one of the final ways you can challenge a conviction when appeals have failed. One of the most common reasons it is filed is to demonstrate that a person had ineffective assistance of counsel, something that is guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution.

Family issues remained a constant theme both in court and in the media’s presentation of the case. What was left out of the narrative was even more significant than what was included. Joshua Hallock, the family’s personal assistant, said to the police at the time of Samira’s death that normally Samira kept the children away from Adam and used them as a pawn in order to get what she wanted from him. One of the women who babysat the girls when Doc had full custody told police that she and Samira had crossed paths at a night club and Samira had threatened to punch her in the face. At the time, Samira had told the woman to be careful because she was very violent.

The media created a picture of how long absences from home and other women had led to Samira filing for divorce. In fact, they were the outcome. Doc didn’t start dating other women and spending longer time periods away from Samira until after the divorce petition was filed. 

In July 2021, Doc would start working with a man who would be pivotal in his next legal undertaking. Buck Shot was a fellow inmate, working in the law library, with four life sentences. He had successfully had three overturned and continued to work on his final one. Now working pro se, Doc would get more help from this inmate, with his years of legal experience, than he had from his $200,000 law team. And that’s exactly what he had to bring out in his 3.850, that his law team could have done so much more to demonstrate his innocence to the jury. 

A golf club that the prosecutor said Doc struck Samira with on her last night when they had supposedly had a fight had so obviously been planted in the home a year after the death. Rather than expose it in the courtroom, Doc’s lawyers appeared in one of the many documentaries afterwards to express their disgust at this travesty of justice. But what good did it do Doc, now adjusting to life in prison with a lumpy mattress, a criminal for a bunkmate, and his young children living over a thousand miles away while his lawyers were able to go home to their houses and families and first-rate meals? 

It was left to Doc and Buck Shot to requisition the evidence room records and expose the cover-up. The golf club brought to court was indeed Samira’s golf club, it had her DNA on it because she used it to hit practise shots into the lake behind their house. It had been leaning on a wall near the front door and had been taken by investigators on the day of her death. 

But another golf club had appeared in the evidence room records, an old Sam Snead one that didn’t belong to any set that Doc and Samira had ever owned. It was used as a decoy while Samira’s golf club was returned to the house where it was ‘found’ by investigators in the master bedroom, a room that had never been used to store golf clubs and in a house that had been cleared out and put up for sale.

This was just one of the many things the two men worked on together to expose the State’s case that had been dependent on perjury and prosecutorial misconduct. 

In one of my exchanges with Mentour Lawyer in the comment section of his videos about the case, I asked him why he was so certain that Adam Frasch was guilty. For him, the interrogation was a big part of what convinced him of Doc’s guilt. He provided the audio recording of it at his YouTube channel and I listened to it three times. I had the opposite experience. I even made a transcript to review. For me, it came across as an innocent man trying to explain a complicated situation. 

There was no doubt that Doc and Samira had issues and in it he alluded to the consequences of the relationship with Martha, as well as to how Samira’s constant accusations of infidelity had broken him to the point where he had decided he might as well do what he was being accused of, but that he knew that it hadn’t been the right thing. “After awhile you get beat down so much and get accused of things, you might as well do it. Or might as well show her, and that’s not right. Like my dad taught me growing up that two wrongs don’t make a right.” The psychology of it was far more absorbing than how any of the documentaries presented it, all of which liked to create a story about a man with dissipated desires. Like most cases, the truth was far more engrossing than fiction. 

Bill Revell: The date is Saturday February 22nd at 11:38 pm here, Bay County Sheriff’s Office Records, case number 14-0835, talking to Adam Frasch, present is Sergeant Brice Google. Mr. Frasch did they read you your Miranda rights?

Adam Frasch: Yes, sir. 

BR: And you understood them?

AF: Yes, sir. 

BR: Those rights, you still want to speak to us?

AF: Yes, sir.

BR: Well, I already know a little about all the issues that you guys, you and Samira, had because we went over those pretty much in length the last time we spoke. [When the police had been called about the domestic violence and Samira had been charged with aggravated assault causing bodily harm.] But let’s go over what transpired these last couple past days. 

AF: What do you want to know about? Yesterday?

BR: Today’s Saturday. Let’s start wth Friday morning. 

AF: OK, I guess Friday morning we woke up. 

BR: Are you still living there in the house?

AF: Yeah, I’ve been staying there. I don’t know if you could say living there, but I’ve been staying there with her. And if we ever have a little argument [indistinct] one of the other houses to get away—or at the office for the night or go down to Panama City, the beach house, you know, if she starts getting upset or kind of in that violent mode…

BR: So on Friday morning you wake up and what…

AF: We’re looking to take the dog to get dog-groomed. She wanted to get her little puppy, I guess it’s a little dog, and then get the girls together and we drove to Pet Smart, we went to a couple of other places she knew for grooming. They were all booked up. And then we decided to go to Thomasville. But she wanted to drop her truck off, her Hummer, because the check engine light was coming on and so I was following her and she dropped it off at… I’m trying to think of the… Super Lube, repair place behind the Super Lube, it’s all part of the same…

BR: Where at?

AF: Thomasville Rd. North…

BR: Right near [indistinct] road..

AF: Right. I dropped it off there and then I had a rental, a Suburban, and so took it, you know, to Thomasville…

BR: What time was that?

AF: It was close to lunchtime, or a little after. And then we ate lunch at Jonah’s together, with the babies. That was around one o’clock or so. In Thomasville. Then we drove over to [yawning] new place, in Thomasville, but they were busy that day, also. Then we… we didn’t do anything else in Thomasville. Oh yeah, we stopped by the office, something came up, she started being upset, excuse me [yawning].

BR: Why was she upset? You said she got upset in Thomasville? What was that about?

AF: She said some of her stuff was missing and where did I put it? Where had I taken it? [breaking down] I said I’m sorry baby, I don’t know where it’s at. I didn’t remember, I mean, it’s like it’s been months ago, you know. The first problem was she was arrested for domestic violence, something, just a bunch of myths came out of that. I was telling her I didn’t know where the stuff was at. She was accusing some guy I had in the house taking it. Or my friend, Kendall, had taken it. I said to her, Samira, I don’t know what stuff and I don’t know that they had taken it. Sometimes she’d do this [indistinct] to check on me to see if I’d done anything, something, you know she was trying… it wasn’t the first time she would say something because she just wanted to check my cars or see if I was doing anything out of character. I think she just wanted to go through my stuff, you know. So we went by the office, she went through the cars that were there. She went in the office, checked everything, but I don’t think she was really looking through for anything of hers, she was just going through my stuff. You know, to kind of see. So right now when she was in that kind of crazy bipolar mode, just let her go, don’t get her upset or something, plus then I won’t be able to spend time with her and the babies. 

BR: What time did you all get back to Tallahassee?

AF:.. I’m trying to think what time. It was probably 3 or 4 o’clock, somewhere in that range.

BR: What did you do when you got back?

AF: We dropped Bella off at the house.

BR: Dropped who?

AF: The dog. In her little carrier thing. Then we stopped by the front gate and the security guard came out. A black guy and he’s witnessed some of our problems we’ve had. And I’ve talked with him about the situation and that. And he came out and opened up the gate and said, “how y’all doing?” “Doing a little better. Working things out.” “OK, is that right?” And he kind of looked at Samira because she was sitting in the passenger’s seat and she nodded and acknowledged, yes, and smiled to him and said thank you or something. Then we went to the house there, Golden Eagle on Inverness and then …

BR: How long were you all there? 

AF (breaking down): It wasn’t too long. It was, like 30…

BR: And what did you do while you were there?

AF: We dropped off Bella and she went and got some stuff. I can’t remember what else she got. I remember, she went and dropped off some dog food that she had bought. You know, pet places right by, bone fish, earlier in the day…  so [breaks down] I’m tired and upset.

BR: I understand but I mean, we’ve got to get through this, so. Let’s, uh, so you all weren’t there very long?

AF: No. 

BR: How long were you there?

AF: Maybe 15, 20 minutes. I can’t remember. Not too long. 

BR: OK, then y’all left? [AF: We all left…] Samira and the kids and y’all left together?

AF: We were all together in the Suburban. She wanted to go by my Lennox Mill house and check the cars out there and … See, she really asked to go in the house which is kind of strange because I guess she had her agenda or something. I don’t know. We looked at two of the vehicles that were sitting there. We went through, you know, a car I had there, in its trunk, and the Jeep I had there and she was looking, so in the Jeep she saw some lingerie, fish net-type thing I bought her for Valentine’s Days, I just didn’t get a chance to get over there and give it to her before we went to South Beach the weekend before. Then she kind of jumped on me, like, whose this for? And I told her I had bought it for her for Valentine’s Day and then she grabbed it, as if she was going to keep it, like she had some evidence against me, or something. And I was just, like, just blew it off. OK, whatever. And then she took that to the Suburban and I don’t think we did much after that.

BR: How long were you there at that house? 

AF: No more than an hour, I’d say.

BR: And then where’d you go after that?

AF: Let’s see… then she said something about she wanted to go to Panama City. So I told her, Samira, the last I thought maybe her stuff might have been in, because she was talking about a purse and something else she had, was maybe in one of the cars we had parked in front of the house in Golden Eagle. But about two weeks she had all of them towed. She brought her lawyer’s secretary over to the house and I wasn’t there. She called me on a Sunday and said my cars were being towed. And I thought that was kind of strange, on a Sunday. I think I was in Panama City here that day. And she called me, that my cars were being towed.  And I thought that was kind of strange, being a Sunday. And I said, what do you mean? That the cars were being towed? And that there’s nothing she can do about it. I was, like, what are you talking about? I though maybe the county was having them towed or the Homeowners Association. So… I can’t remember what that date was but it was a couple of weeks earlier. She told me that the Home Association was complaining because she had people come over and her parked in the driveway. And we had too many cars. We had had a complaint before so I went over, I guess two weeks before, three weeks before and moved a couple of them with a friend of mine. Well, she doesn’t like this friend of mine because he testified against her in an injunction hearing. 

BR: So let’s get back to you all were talking about going to Panama City.

AF: Yeah, well like I said, we went back to Super Lube and they said what was going on with her car, the check engine light was on and she said it was shaking, or vibration of tires, but they didn’t get around to the tires because they said they were too big or something to put on their machine to check out so they couldn’t do that. But they… [breaks down] Yeah, she was talking to them on the phone about it. They said it was her gas cap. It had a pressure leak, or something, and a 300 dollar or some estimate. I said, well Samira, I have several of those vehicles, it’s a GM gas cap. And hers locked. I said, we can try and replace it and see and that’s what they were going to charge her for and then some other pressure relief valve. And for that kind of money we’ll just try getting a new cap for it. Which they couldn’t get that late in the day, anyhow. I just told her we’d take it in next week if that didn’t solve the problem, we’ll bring it back and get the pressure valve thing figured…

BR: What time did you leave Tallahassee?

AF: Probably, well, it was four or five o’clock, somewhere in that range. 

BR: Then what? You were in Panama City, then what?

AF: We drove, stopped and got gas…  And she asked… 

BR: Driving in the black Suburban?

AF: Oh and she asked if she could leave her truck there and then come back later and get it and that was fine. They gave her the keys and I had to pay an $81 diagnostic fee. And then we drove onto… once we stopped to get gas and informing J, then she… I told her I didn’t really want to go. We kind of had a little argument. Because I have this staph infection in my leg and she’d had it on her butt, her backside, but hers was doing a lot better. Mine was still flared up and giving me problems and I was, like, baby, I don’t know if I’ll be able to go to Panama City and she told me that she would drive. And that’s another thing. I was kind of hesitant over her driving because she had drank a little bit earlier. But she said that by the time we got there, you know, she’d be sober and feeling OK to drive. Then I agreed to go on. And it’s more like… I think she just wanted, it’s the first time she’d been to Panama City in months that I know of. I mean she might have been down there without me but… And I was, like, her stuff wouldn’t be down there because I wouldn’t have ever moved stuff from Tallahassee to Panama City since she’s been there since the…

BR: So the purpose of Panama City was to look for her stuff?

AF: Well, that’s what she was saying. That I might have put it there. I was kind of assuring her that there was no way I would have put it there even if I had the stuff. And I knew what she was getting at, but I just didn’t want to create any waves. We were having such a good week and a good time. And things were working out better between us so I didn’t want her to go off the deep end again, you know, or go on the crazy train on me and get upset or violent. I know she does it a lot when I’m driving the car. I’m kind of vulnerable, so gets angry and stuff, you know, hitting at me, poking me in the eyes, pulling my hair, doing things. I mean, there’s been multiple witnesses of this when people are in the car. And I just thought, you know, that’s what she was gonna do, start going on that again or something. Now I don’t like her doing it, especially with the babies in the car. She did pretty good. She was bringing up the past a little, about things that would, you know, upset her. But she didn’t really go too violent or anything on the road. 

BR: So what time did you get to Panama City?

AF: Um, I mean the time change and that, so it was probably, here, probably six something. Six or seven o’clock.

BR: OK. How long y’all stay here?

AF: Not very long. I mean, she went in the house. Of course we had the babies so we changed the babies. Got them kind of squared away in the beach house. It’s in disarray because we’ve been, or I’ve been just kind of keeping it up best as I can. There’s this economy and stuff. And we’re trying to renovate it one time, so it’s not really in great shape. But she was going through stuff of mine there I had sitting out, bags of stuff and clothes and that. She didn’t find what she was looking for but she made a comment about some of my whores must have gone through some of her things in the upstairs, like, in the upstairs bedroom. And I said, Samira, nobody’s going through that stuff. Nobody’s been messing with her stuff. But she…

BR: So did y’all get into an argument there while you’re over there?

AF: Not really. I mean she was…

BR: Nothing physical happened there?

AF: No, she was doing…

BR: What time did you leave there?

AF: We left about, it was probably 8ish or so. I’m trying to think because it was around dinner time and I wanted to stop and get dinner. She says, no I’m not stopping. We’ll stop on the way or get something in Tallahassee, on the road or in Tallahassee. 

BR: You came back to Tallahassee?

AF: Right. On the way I told her, it was getting about, I remember the time frame because it was getting about 9ish, something Central Time and coming over to Eastern I told her by the time we get to Tallahassee things will start closing up so we won’t be able to eat. She said, well OK, we’ll stop here. So we stopped at Arby’s in Marianna, I guess it was. 

BR: So where’d you go when you got back to Tallahassee?

AF (breaking down): I miss her so much. Um, we went on, we went back to the Super Lube place and got her truck. And then she made it kind of, like, don’t think you’re going to be coming home. And I said, Sam, I’ve got to get off this leg because she didn’t, you know, she didn’t understand that it was that bad with her being.… 

BR: So did y’all get into an argument at Super Lube?

AF: A little bit but it’s more like just, her just kind of getting…

BR: She didn’t want you to stay at the house that night?

AF: No, she just said, you know, she actually wanted to transfer the babies out and all that. And I said Sam why don’t you just go there and I’ll switch things out and we’ll talk about it and try… She’s still upset about, you know, that she wanted her f-ing things and earlier in the day, that’s another thing. She called one of my friends because he was trying to call me and when she saw, you remember Kendall? And she saw his name, whenever she saw his name…. because he was there as a witness to the domestic violence when she got arrested and she went off on him on the phone. And then he hung up, but when he called he didn’t know she was on the phone with me. She said answer it. I said no, I don’t want to. I knew what she was going to do, start some altercation thing [indistinct about the staph infection on leg]. So… it just helps to keep it elevated.

BR: So did you follow her back home?

AF: Yeah, I followed her to Golden Eagle. And then, you know, she sat there for awhile and then…

BR: Sat where?

AF: Out on the road. Like a little while and I didn’t even notice. I was following her and I was tired and then she went kind of around the block and then sat at the front of the yard again, then went around and come back and then parked in the driveway. And then I come down the driveway and parked and then she sat there…

BR: Before y’all got there how did, where, did y’all stop at the gate?

AF: Yeah.

BR: OK, what happened there again?

AF: She was trying to find her clicker and she’d taken my clicker, the little thing you go through the gate with, or I don’t know if you’d say she took it. I couldn’t find it in my Suburban. So I got out to punch in the code. Because my phone, you can page it into the phone. By the time I got up there she had found her clicker or something, clicked it and then went on through so I…

BR: So were you guys arguing then?

AF: Not really. She was kind of upset that she still wanted her stuff she wanted her F-ing things back was how she was kind of phrasing it. I said Sam, you know maybe they’re in this stuff because we hadn’t checked the things at the tow place yet. And I haven’t got the stuff out of the tow yet. I talked to the guy and paid him and he said that I could keep it there as long as I needed to until, you know, we got things kind of resolved where I could move them to. And then his rollback thing was broke down. The day I went out there it was raining and everything. When I got back into town a couple of weeks ago and he said that for a hundred dollars he could tow them to Thomasville or wherever I needed them to go and then any of them I could drive, we could just drive them out of there. He wouldn’t charge me storage after that. 

BR: So tell me a little more about at the gate because obviously you know that they have cameras there and you know we’ve already looked at the cameras. And in the cameras it appears that you guys were in some kind of argument.

AF: Well it wasn’t really an argument. I just asked her, you know, Sam you know, I can’t remember what I said to her but I got my…

BR: Did she ever get out of her car?

AF: I don’t think so. Not that I remember. 

BR: Did you open the door to her car?

AF: I don’t think so. I remember… I might have had to ask her if she had my clicker or something. I can’t remember. I do remember I got out, went up to punch the number in the keypad because I was behind her and then I got back in my car and followed her in. 

BR: Well, I can tell you on the video it shows you opening the door and her slamming it.

AF: Well that might have happened, yeah. 

BR: Does that jog your memory?

AF: A little bit. Is that before I went back? Yeah, I think so because I was asking if she had my clicker. She said I don’t have your f-ing clicker, or something like that, you know, I can’t remember exactly what she said. And I was like, you know, I mean, if you just know her personality type you… just because she’s French and I don’t know, just her kind of bipolar personality type. I just have to deal with some of that stuff sometimes, just kind of weather it out. And go back in the car and follow her in. And like I said, then she got there and I said, baby, you know, I keep telling her, please forgive me. Don’t get so upset. I don’t know what happened to your stuff but I didn’t take it. I didn’t, you know, dispose of it. As far as I know, nobody else took it, but I had some people come in, like babysitters, cleaning people, during that time because I had the babies for about six weeks while she had supervised visitation right at the house trying to work out things. They could have maybe taken some of her stuff. I heard someone make comments about her nice stuff in her closet and that…

BR: OK, well, so what happened when you y’all got back to the house?

AF: Then she kind of calmed down a little bit. And then I can’t remember what she said or how she put it, but then she… um, I helped her get the babies in and unload the car and then we went in, got the babies changed down and um, I don’t know what time this was. It was probably 10ish, or more later than that. Probably, if I know more of the time frame because the video will put us around 11, maybe, somewhere in that range. And then we got them down. She went outside in the living room area. We started talking. She was going over, you know, some of the stuff. And you know, I just kept trying to tell her, saying, I’m sorry. I’m not, you know, but I’ll make it up to you tenfold, whatever I have to do to get your stuff back. What was missing. And then she was saying, you can’t replace that. It was some special purse she had or something. And I was like, Samira, I don’t know what it was but I’ll try and make it up if it’s missing or if somebody took it or I don’t know. Um, my leg’s hurting pretty bad at this point. I’m kind of distraught with that but just telling her, you know, I got to help so she let me sit there and elevate my leg while we talked. She started drinking champagne and opened up another bottle or something. 

BR: What kind of champagne was she drinking?

AF: There are so many different brands she gets and stuff. But I think one of them was like a Korbel or something. She usually doesn’t drink cheap champagne but she had that. And then there was a couple of bottles of something else she had opened. One of those, earlier, I think. That’s something too. I think she had some of that when we went back to drop Bella off. And earlier in the day she had had something to drink. I just wanted her not driving and drinking. But sometimes when she’s drinking she gets in that anger, violent mode.

BR: Did you drink anything that night?

AF: No.

BR: How much do you think she had to drink?

AF: I would say, close to a couple of bottles of champagne. 

BR: By herself?

AF: By herself.

BR: That night, after you guys got back at 11 o’clock at night?

AF: Right…

[In the trial, this absent-minded acceptance of a statement made to him sometime after midnight, after two nights of hardly any sleep and suffering the worst day of his life, got presented to the jury as Doc told investigators that Samira had consumed two full bottles of champagne from midnight to 4 AM. In context, Doc was telling investigators that she had possibly consumed close to two bottles of champagne throughout the day.  Since the toxicology report said she had no alcohol in her system, it was used to make Doc seem like a liar, rather than support the more obvious conclusion, that Samira had died later, not earlier, and therefore had had time for whatever amount of alcohol she had consumed to exit her system.]

AF: … and I would always kind of suddenly get on her for that because I tell her for one, you’ve got to be calm to take care of the babies or help, if I’m not there, of course, take care of them by herself. But also, she’s got such a low body weight that it really hits her harder. If she drinks one or two glasses of champagne she’s nice and calm and even passionate and things like that and we have a good evening. If she drinks three or four I’m dealing with Jekyll or you know…

BR: OK, she obviously had a lot to drink…

AF: Yeah.

BR: Did she become violent last night, that night?

AF: Not really too bad, she was, actually, we made love in the living room on the chair in the living room.

[A rape kit applied to Samira showed that the couple had had consensual sex that night.]

BR: When you say, made love, you had sex?

AF: Uh-hum and it was, I don’t like to get that personal. It was one of the better times we had. It had been awhile for that. And then she just said that she was really tired and exhausted and if I would give her a break and I said, what do you mean a break? And she said tomorrow, I want a break. I said I’ll be glad to give you a break, baby. You know, what do you want? She said, take the babies. You guys go somewhere. I want to sleep in. And we’ve done this before. I would say especially when we’ve gone to South Beach in south Florida for the last three or four weekends. And she likes to go shopping and that and I just give her a break and I take care of the babies at the hotel or take them somewhere and she’d go do her thing. You know, and I knew she needed a break from the babies because it’s a lot of work taking care of a baby and a toddler. And I give her accolades for that. Especially, it’s not my gift. She seems to enjoy that. It’s more her gift I guess, as a mother.

BR: What time do you think you guys went to bed?

AF: It was probably close to two, one or two, in that range. 

BR: Where did you sleep at?

AF: In the master bedroom. And we talked about, and she said she was going to have J come over. Which is Gerald, this friend she has. And that was kind of strange to me because usually she was in this kind of anger, what you call it, kind of a anger, upset, accusation type mode and after that she was almost kind of like this depressed mode because of some information she got from a girl earlier in the week that I dated during the divorce process. But I assured her when she made a comment earlier about that, or something before we made love, that I was there fighting for her. I didn’t want this other girl. Or, I didn’t choose her. And she has to understand that. Can’t keep bringing up the past or throwing it in my face. 

BR: Y’all talked about this before you went to bed?

AF: Yeah, but then she woke me up during this, about two, I don’t what time it was. But she said that one of the girls that I kind of really didn’t date her, it was like, just a crazy…

BR: What time did y’all wake up?

AF: That was I guess, when she said that she was on her phone or my phone. And said this girl had been arrested 25 times or something. 

BR: What time was that?”

AF: Probably 4ish, or so.

BR: In the morning?

AF: Yeah.

BR: OK.

AF: And she’d been drinking some more. I could tell. You know, and kind of slurring her words. And so I said, Samira, please just let that go. And then, you know, she’d get all these, mother fucker and say some 4-letter words and stuff and I was half asleep and my leg was hurting. And she said she’d been arrested 25 times or something. And she kept asking me what, some abbreviation you guys use for driving without a proper… It’s not a DUI, driving without license, or something.

BR: OK.

AF: This girl, it’s all like little misdemeanour things. I said to her, Samira, I can’t control what other people have done. I didn’t do a background check on her when I met her or whatever. I just tried to, you know, tolerate this girl I met but it didn’t work out. 

BR: So did she get violent?

AF: No. She was a little upset but it was more like, well it wasn’t her norm. It was almost like depressed, but she’d been drinking a lot that week. More than normal. We had a talk about that. And then she’d get on me, saying, oh you’re going to use that in court that I’m an alcoholic like Tracey or something, that’s my ex-wife. I was like, Samira, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m just saying, it’s not being responsible. It’s not being, you know, good for the children. 

BR: Did you go back to sleep after that? Or did you just stay up?

AF: Went back to sleep. And then she talked about, well just give me a break then. Because I’m tired of this, having to deal with these babies. She’d always bring that up to me. I have to be here all day long while you’re out, f-ing around. I said, Samira, I work. I see patients. Someone might stroll in late. And she’s always accusing me if I’m five minutes later from when I call her getting home that I’m cheating on her, that I’ve done something wrong, whatever. If I stop off at the post office and get delayed. Or whatever it is. Or if I have a late patient, they come in and hold me up. And I just end up talking to her so this is kind like that same kind of, like… you know, but she went off on this girl, but then she said she just wanted a break and when I get home she’ll tell me. It’s kind of her way of venting, I think, but yet I’ve been trying to get her help. Trying to get her to counselling. She went with me one time and I tell her all the postponements we’ve had with this injunction thing, all the crap that’s happened with that. I told her, these people are not your friends. They’re just about making money. That’s why they keep doing all this stuff. I’ve been through it before. And I’m self-represented now. For one, in this case, I’m the victim. But also, I told her, it’s just about drumming up money. You know, and I have to pay all her legal fees.

BR: What case are you the victim?

AF: In this case that we’re talking about. I mean in the injunction thing, you know, where she got the domestic violence charge. And you know, the case where she ran my truck and all that and it all got a whole…

BR: Tell me how you’re the victim in this case?

AF: Well, I’m not. I don’t say this case. I just found out today what was going on. And it just really, you know, upset me. 

BR: Well, what happened this morning when you left?

AF: OK, so she wanted me, that was our agreement. So I got up with the babies. I told her I have to get down, because that’s another argument we had a little bit last night. Why don’t we just stay in Panama City because I have to take care of this boat thing. I have a boat in a marina and they give me until the end of the month to either get the thing fixed or have it moved because they’re going to put a lien on the thing where I’m not paying them their fees for storage and all that. But they don’t know what’s going on with the boat. It’s got a check engine light or something, little alarm going off or something. And I told her, I need to go down and get that boat moved and I’ll move it to Thomasville or maybe I’ll take it south. She likes going to south Florida. We might take it to south Florida and we can use it down there. I’ll get a mechanic to look at it. They might know a little bit more about what’s going on with the boat than here in Panama City. And we talked about that and she said, well. And I told her I’ve got this rental Suburban. I can tow it with that, and get it out because it’s got better weight [indistinct] than anything that I have to pull with right now [indistinct] besides her Hummer. But the check engine lights on it and the valve thing, or whatever, was messed up so we agreed and said that was the best thing. But she just wanted a break, if I could give her a break from the babies and then I said, that’s no problem. You know, I always try to accommodate her. I’m trying to work things out with the marriage and that. And then I got up. I got the babies situated. I got the dog taken care of, put food out for him because she said we’d meet up later. That’s what we agreed to at the time. That J was coming. She talked to him earlier in the day. I heard her, you know, on the phone. But it kind of, she kind of talks to him sometimes to make me jealous. Like, she’s not necessarily having an affair but she misses him and wants him to come over, He does all of her odd end jobs around the house that I didn’t do for the last three or four years, whatever. I mean, I get along with Gerald, too, he’s not like an enemy of mine but he used to change the locks on the doors when she’d get upset at me, during, say the last year or two. And I’d tell him, Gerald, you don’t have the right to change locks, because once I talked to the police about it. They said, actually, he’s the one kind of committing a crime in that sense. I remember, what the deal, I think I talked with you about it, right, that you can’t really change the locks on a door without a judge’s order. Or me doing something wrong that allows him to do that. And so I got on him one time for that. I told him to… so that’s the only out we have with him. But she knows he sides with her over me, put it that way. And she pays him. I paid him before too, but I mean, it’s not like… But he’s kind of more partial to her so…

BR: What happened this morning?

AF: Well, that’s what I was getting back to is just, you know. Got the babies together. Got them loaded up. Got the car seats moved from her car to the Suburban. I still had a bunch of stuff I needed to unload from the Suburban from Miami from the weekend before. too. I told her, she wouldn’t let me do that last night here. Because I wanted to unload some of my personal belongings. I’ve been living out of my car for six months, say. I don’t know how long this has been going on, since the, I guess around August or so, was that, if you remember. And that’s where I’d stop off to do laundry and stuff, like Panama City here, and then spend a few days or weekends to get things kind of caught up and then get my mail and stuff going through. And then…

BR: Mr. Frasch, tell us what happened this morning.

AF: OK back to that. I got the car seats and babies together. I kind of just kept them in their little nightgowns because I didn’t want to bother to wake her up. I’m sorry, before I got them going I got all the stuff kind of arranged for the dog, the dog food set out. I changed the skimmer thing of the leaves and stuff and yet, there was, the look, the level of the pool got down a little low. I always had to watch that especially when we’re going for the weekend because if I don’t keep the water dripping it wants to get low and then the pump starts seizing or kind of struggling and taking on air. So Gerald or somebody had the hose all kind of straight out there because he washes off the deck and cleans it with bleach where the dog’s pooped or there’s any stains where he’s peed or pooped. He’s supposed to use little pads inside in the bathroom, or we call it the pool room where there’s a shower and a bathroom. And that’s where when it’s cold out we let him go in, or [indistinct] her, to you know, get out of the cold. But then sometimes we keep her in there completely if it’s real cold out. We don’t leave the door open. But we’ll leave it cracked a little bit, let her go in and out if it’s temperature is moderate.

BR: Let me ask you, did you guys have an altercation this morning before you woke the kids up?

AF: No. 

BR: Where did you get the injuries from?

AF: What injuries?

BR: The scratch on your eye?

AF: The baby did that. Earlier in the day when we were playing around. That’s all, you know, from that. 

BR: What about your hands?

AF: Everything on my hands, you know, got a few little scratches, a little kind of darkness there, but I alway have a little darkness on these. You know, messing around with stuff. 

BR: What was she wearing last night? When you were in bed?

AF: Nothing. I mean we usually sleep naked, or if one of the babies is in the room I aways try to put on my underwear or pyjamas or something myself. But she usually is nude. And she might, you know, wear like a, one of her, what you call them? Bathrobes or like sheer night robe thing. If she’s getting up to go do something in the house. But sometimes she just walks around naked. 

BR: How is she around pools?

AF: She’s got a phobia of water. 

BR: So you’d probably say, does she even go near the pool?

AF: Yeah, I mean she’ll go. It bothers me because I’ve tried many times to teach her how to swim. And she doesn’t want to even try to learn. 

BR: Right.

AF: It upsets me because I told her even if she didn’t want to learn so much… I used to be a lifeguard. I said, with a pool and having little ones, even if something happened with them or they get in that water, or something. Or one of the pets. She might be able to save them. {Breaks down.) We kept talking about it when the babies… She wouldn’t let me teach the babies with my daughter and my daughter’s certified and that’s part of her … my oldest daughter. (Breaks down.) … teach her how to swim … and then she and the babies to swim. And we talked one time about maybe when the babies were … we’d hire someone to come to the house and teach the babies to swim that she would, maybe go with them. But then she got pregnant and it never got followed up on. 

BR: Mr. Frasch, you know, obviously, we’ve been to the house and you know what, I’m sure you know what we do when we go to these houses is, we look at this, we treat it as a scene. We look at a scene. We collect evidence. We do certain things, and as you know, a scene doesn’t lie. The way things are laying, the way things are disorganized or what not. That’s the way it is. And just some things that you’re saying is not really adding up to what the scene is showing. 

AF: I don’t know why. I wasn’t there to…

Brice Google: OK, we’ve sat here for … and we’ve just let you go on and on and on. We need to go ahead and be about the business and talk.

AF: I’m telling you…

BG (interrupting): I understand…

AF: But I…

BG: Let me finish. We sat quietly and just let you talk right on and on. Detective Revell would ask you a specific question and you would talk all the way around it. Just gibber jabber.

AF: But I’m telling you what happened this morning. And that’s all I could do. I found out what happened, like…

BG: Understand this, we know the history.  

AF: Right. I understand. 

BG: We know how things have taken place between the two of you, OK? 

AF: Right.

BG: You’re not the only one we’ve talked to. We’ve talked to several other people. What we’re trying to do right now is find out the reasons why things turned out the way they did. You can shed some light on that. 

AF: And that’s what I’m trying to do. Explain… what is all I know, this morning.

BG: No, you know a whole lot more than you’re telling. 

AF: I do not, sir. I’m being honest.

BG: Let me tell you something. I’ve been doing this for 20 years. 

AF: Right. 

BG: OK? I’ve interviewed, I don’t know how many people. 

AF: Right. 

BG: This is not new. 

AF: I understand. 

BG: You just sat up here and broke down in your own way of crying, I don’t know how many times and not one tear has dropped out of your eye. 

AF: I’m already teared out for six hours here, sir. I mean, if you know how much I love this woman you would…

BG: There’s just no doubt you will not hear me dispute that. There’s no doubt. [AF: It’s just…] I have no doubt that you did love her. But you know as well as I do that love brings about some crazy, impulsive reactions sometimes. Love will make a person do some crazy things. Look man, I understand. It happens. People make mistakes. People act irrationally. I can accept that. The truth… [AF: But I didn’t…] The truth can be accepted. 

AF: But I never have, I mean, I told Officer Revell this before, I’ve been through this abusive thing a thousand times with her. You know, oh, and that’s what I’m kind of saying. Last night she wasn’t really in that kind of a mode. She was more in a kind of depressed kind of hurt mode, or something. It wasn’t her usual antics, you know. And then I did make a comment to her last night, too. It was earlier that if she was going to take Bella to the groomer, to be careful not to take her carrier out there because when she knows the carrier’s coming for the van or the groomer, she goes, you know, crazy. You have a hard time catching her. 

BG: Did y’all not have a recent court date about three months ago about the child custody?

AF: No, I mean…

BG: That’s a yes or no question.

AF: Yes, sir.

BG: And what happened at that, what did the judge…

AF: Well, she ordered her, I don’t know if you knew the situation went on.

BG: I don’t need to know the situation. I’m asking what the judge ordered. 

AF: She ordered her the custody of the children and the use of the house.

BG: And after that was ordered how many times have you taken the children?

AF: Um, probably four or five times. I mean, when we’re not…

BG: She’s allowed you to take the children four or five times? 

AF: I’ll tell you, during that time, at least that, yeah. I mean, I’ve been around, she’s always kind of, like, you know, she wouldn’t even want to sometimes even be seen out together in Tallahassee because it was like it would work against her or something. I told her, they’re not going to have you in breach of the injunction because I had the injunction still in place. That’s really where her lawyers didn’t show up last month for that and I had my witnesses there again to prove the situation with the babies and that. It was falsified. And that’s when we hit a top because they’re just going to keep on postponing stuff, running it out and you know, and run up a bunch of legal fees. She got awarded legal fees again and that was what was weird. At that hearing, Judge Hobbs, she, one time when I was out of town, had an emergency hearing and within two days, this was scheduled for a month earlier, for this injunction hearing. Also considered for the custody of the children. And that wasn’t that long ago. And she gave her lawyer a courtesy call. They, her lawyer’s secretary, which is his wife, shows up and they said they didn’t know anything about the hearing. I’d even talked to Samira in between this time and she knew about the hearing. And I told her I was going to try to drop the injunction if she was amiable to us working on things and going to counselling. She didn’t want to. And the court date came and Judge Hobbs, I had my witnesses there again to, you know, prove that we did not abuse those babies. It was her that was doing that stuff and taking pictures of it and trying to make us look like it. And they put these other people, almost like they’d done something wrong, too. The babysitters and the people I had entrusted, you know, the caregiving of the children.

BG: When you got up this morning you left with the babies. What was it that you…

AF: It was approximately eight, or so. 

BG: And where was Sam?

AF: She was in bed. 

BG: Was she awake? Was she sleeping?

AF: No, she was kind of… I knew what she said from the night before but she’d had so much to drink she just wanted to sleep in that morning. And then she said, J’s coming over. I remember her talking to J about it. She went from…  and I use the, I kind of know what that connotation was, why she…

BG: Was she awake or was she asleep?

AF: She was sleeping and kind of turned over and said, OK [indistinct].

BG: OK, yeah and she didn’t want to kiss the babies goodbye?

AF: No, she was just, kind of, pretty well out of it. 

BG: Knowing that you was about to take them off?

AF: I wasn’t taking them off. We’d talked about it, that maybe she’d come to the beach or we meet back and then head to South Beach. 

BG: For how long you said you’d been there? Staying there?

AF: Off and on, probably for the last, I’m trying to think how long we’ve been seeing each other regularly and I’ve spent the night probably a good month. Off and on.

BG: And you’re doing that in the hopes of trying to work things out?

AF: Yes, sir. I mean, and we… it was actually going good. I was telling friends I called today, cell friends. I tried calling her several times. It was kind of rare…

BG: You tried calling whose cell phone?  

AF: Samira. Today. It was… I started about 11ish or so because I wanted to call and see if she got up. And if J was there. And I wanted to talk to her, too. Usually when she’d have J come over, like this, in the last month that we’ve been working things out she really don’t want me around and that kind of bothers me a little bit because of the past, what he’s done with the locks and stuff but also, he’s kind of her confidant with talking about things and then sometimes she gets stirred up when I come back then about …

BG: You’ve been there off and on for the past month  and things have been going pretty  good and everything. Why is she so depressed or acting so sad or whatever.

AF: Because she got some information this last week that really hurt her. And this girl’s been extorting her out of money, giving her information about our relationship and …

BG: That information she got had to do with your relationship?

AF: With this girl, yeah. And she told me what she’d been doing and paid her a bunch of money for it. And it was, you know, some pretty bad stuff which I didn’t have any idea somebody would do things like this or do extortion type…

BG: So there was no type of altercation or anything like that? Over this information that had just…

 AF: Not this morning. It had happened earlier in the week. And it wasn’t her usual, that’s what I was telling some friends about it, and my staff, because she…

BG: When’d she find out?

AF: That was like Tuesday or so, early in the week, so I slept at the office a couple times this week because she would get on the, I call it the crazy train. 

BG: How was she after, when she first found out?

AF: It was a different anger or different, it was more of a hurt. And she said… and she was, of course, going to use it in court against me or whatever and all this and I was like, Samira, for one, I didn’t give this person permission to do this stuff.

BG: Did she become aggressive towards you?

AF: Not like usual because usually, I mean, stuff gets thrown, she hits me with stuff, scratching, whatever, pulls my hair, does crazy, you know, violent-type behavior. But this was more like verbal, um,…

BG: Trying to make you feel guilty?

AF: Guilty, but also she was hurt. Because it was the first time I could remember…

BG: Why weren’t you trying, why did you feel a need to stay at the office for a couple of nights or so?

AF: Just because I didn’t want to have an episode, plus I don’t want the police being called. I don’t want…

BG: What was that first part? Because you… 

AF: I don’t know what I said. 

BG: No, me neither. That’s what I’m asking. Finish your statement.

AF: I mean, I didn’t want any, you know, violent episode. I didn’t want any [BG interrupts] and then also..

BG: This time she had a sadness about her.

AF: Yeah. She started drinking a lot more and I don’t like that. 

BG [Indistinct] she started drinking.

AF: What?

BG: When did she start drinking?

AF: I mean, she’s always drank a little bit.

BG: But when did she start drinking more?

AF: I’d say this last week. You know, quite a bit more. I mean we had, we always keep kind of, or she keeps, I’d say, a stockpile of champagne. 

BG: But I asked you, how did she react, how did she respond? You just told me that she, it was a different type of anger, I asked was it aggressive physically? You said no. She was just doing more talking. 

AF: Right.

BG: I asked, was it, like, making you feel guilty. You said, yes. So my question again is, if she’s doing this more reserved, resolved talking and more softer type anger why would you feel a need to stay at the office and it couldn’t be because you were scared of violence, as you said, because you contradicted that and said there was nothing. 

AF: I mean, I didn’t want it to escalate to that and also, we’d had things going a lot smoother. And it seemed like when this girl was doing this, I call it extortion thing or this, sending her pictures of us, sending her pictures of things that she claims I bought her or had done, you know, some of those, like things, that she was, you know claiming that I’d done with this girl. It was like it almost drew her closer to me or that she felt…

BG: Drew who closer to you?

AF: Samira. I want to say, after she got through the verbal, I guess, accusations or the hurtful things she would say, we would draw closer that night, like intimately.

BG: Y’all were having sex last night?

AF: Exactly. It’s like, I’ve always… [indistinct] if you could weather those storms, the make up sex was even better. Or was, it’s kind of psychotic a little bit on my part because I knew because people always say, Doc, how do you put up with that or how do you put up with her? You know, because they witnessed her verbal abuse and her physical abuse, you know. And they can’t see why I stay with her because they’ve never  witnessed something like that. So…

BG: What are you thinking happened today? [AF: Well…]  That things turned out the way they did?

AF: [Indistinct - well it turned out what it did] I’m just worried that because I left that, I took the… this morning. I got Bella’s, you know, food situated. And I figured she’s probably going to have J come and clean up the poop and stuff on the deck of the pool. And, I guess, you know, things around there, so I didn’t even need to, it was my routine in the morning when I am there and the weather’s decent.

BG: You’re not answering my question. What do you think happened?

AF: I don’t know. I’m worried that she may have tripped on the water hose that was out there or the poop or something. Or trying to chase Bella around the pool and fell in. Or fell and…

BG: Has she ever been known to chase Bella around the pool?

AF: Mm-hmm. I mean, I had to do it because if you bring the dog carrier out she, like, knows to go to the vet or to go to the groomers.

BG: You’re gonna tell me this young lady has a phobia of the water and phobias a pretty strong word meaning she’s pretty much terrified of the water and she’s going to go out there and get that close to it?

AF: Yeah. [indistinct] that kind of surprised me around the pool. But she also knows, like, she’s been in the pool before but it’s like the shallow end. You can stand up in that. But she doesn’t like to, like, get even close to where the, it goes pretty steep from shallow to deep. And I try to get her out there a little bit. I wish we had a transitionary, more, where I could get her to put her head in the in the water and kind of paddle around and stuff but whenever she gets out where her feet don’t touch she gets awfully you know, upset and gets real, you know, I don’t know what you’d call it. And it’s something that happened to her when she was a young child or something, some boating accident or something with her siblings that she just doesn’t want to get in, you know, the water where it’s, it all could be dangerous, you know, or she had a risk of drowning. So obviously there she goes around the pool all the time. I mean, walks, um, we’re out there quite a bit, you know, with the babies and during the summer. But we talked about the [breaks down, indistinct] thought about this situation…

BR: Mr. Frasch, I’m going to be honest with you. I know that in the past that we’ve talked and I’ve always been honest with you and I never lied to you and I’ve never danced around anything that we talked about, OK? That’s not what happened. Me and you both know that she wasn’t chasing the dog around the pool.

AF: Well, I don’t know what happened.

BR: Dr. Frasch, we know you’ve been through a lot, OK. You have been through a lot. Even the best person in the world has a limit. OK? I don’t care how nice you are. I don’t care how great a guy you are. How much money you have. I don’t care about any of that. The best person in the world has a limit. OK? And when they reach that limit, they do things that they wouldn’t ordinarily do. Or couldn’t even think of doing. You understand what I’m saying? 

AF: I understand that.

BR: And I think you reached that limit. 

AF: No, it’s not true. 

BG: Understand that when we come and talk to you, and I’m sure you already know this, we’re not going to tell you everything we know. 

AF: I understand. That’s why the best answer is… I could see the body or see what may have happened if there’s foul play or Gerald did something or they got in an altercation or I don’t know. I wasn’t there. So I don’t know. 

BG: You saw the body. Why are you asking to see the body? 

AF: I never saw the body. I wanted to see the body. And see what may have happened to her. What’s going on. You know, I know her body like the back of my hand so it would, you know, may be helpful to find out what had happened or who may have done something or whatever. 

BG: And so you’ve got this scratch under your eye. 

AF: What’s that?

BG: How did you say you got…

AF: The baby was playing around and she always kind of grabs at my eye and face and stuff and scratching…

BG: Which one?

AF: The little one. 

BG: The ten-month old?

AF: Right. 

BG: So you’re trying to make me believe that a 10-month old has nails enough to make that type of scratch on your face?

AF: Yeah. So I mean that happened,I don’t even know when, then this morning, last night when I was playing, I played with them and they get up on me and I let them sit on my chest and we play and then sometimes she’ll grab and scratch, you know, we have to trim her nails when they get like that because they can scratch. I admit, Samira did… her MO a lot of times, to poke me in the eye or scratch but she didn’t do that. I would admit it if she did. My wrist and hand, I think it was when I was in, when they first cuffed me. They’re pretty aggressive when they came to the Panama City house today and when they put me in the original car it was all hard and then I had to sit on my hands and that’s when this stuff kind of happened. 

BR: Dr. Frasch, what you’re telling us about this morning, that’s not what happened.  

AF: Well, I don’t know happened. I said I don’t know. I wasn’t there but her situation, what was going on, what happened I don’t know. And when my friend called me, Kendall, and told me, that’s how I kind of knew before the police got there. He wanted me to come back to Tallahassee. Because he said, you know, that J had called, Jake or Juan or JB called him and said that Samira’s body was floating in the pool at home. And then I was, like, oh my God, you know I just went ballistic on the phone and broke down and he said, do you need me to come to, you know, Panama City and get you? What are you thinking? I said, I don’t know, you know. You know, try to get the babies together and see what, you know, I can do.

BR: What kind of person do you think you are?

AF: A good person. I mean I try to do the best I can for… and help out people.

BR: Does a good person take responsibility for his actions?

AF: Yes, sir. 

BR: Do you think a good person would be able to live with themselves if they were to do something like this?

AF: No. Not at all. 

BR: You think a good person would feel guilty the rest of their lives doing something like this? 

AF: I would assume so, yes. Conscience. 

BR: Then tell us what really happened this morning.

AF: I’m telling you what happened this morning. And I don’t know.

BR: Dr. Frasch, you just need to get it out there. 

AF: I don’t. 

BR: Let’s get it, let’s just get it on the table. Let’s quit beating around the bush. Let’s go..

AF: If you’re accusing me that I did something, do I need to have a lawyer present? Do I need to…

BR: All I’m asking you is to tell us what really happened.

AF: And I can’t. I mean, that’s what I know happened. So that’s where I’m at. I can’t make up anything else. I can’t… I tried to give an accurate timeline of things. I kept calling her this morning. I know she was upset. She’d been drinking. I kept calling to say…

BR: Yeah, the reason you were calling is because you knew she wasn’t going to answer. 

AF: No, I didn’t know she wasn’t going to answer. I know I upset her sometimes because she doesn’t turn her phone on and her little connector thing for her phone doesn’t always charge her phone. And I’ll have to to tell her, Samira, when you get this message please turn on your phone or make sure you keep it charged and then sometimes purposefully, I’ll call her. I mean, you can look at the call histories and stuff. I’ll call her six or seven times before she picks up. But I also know she’s busy with the babies. She may be in another room. She may not have it on her in person in the house so I just have to keep calling until she picks up. And then her usual answer, I mean, since we’ve been going through these problems is, what’che you want? You know, or something, where she used to be more amicable when she answered. And I always try to be very pleasant because sometimes if I wasn’t, she gets upset with that. So I’ve learned over the years to not talk anything kind of like she does to me back. Because it just causes a big phone war type thing. 

BG: So the only thing you can think of how this happened was her running around the pool, trips and falls in the pool. That’s …

AF: That, or she had been drinking and I don’t know, you know, going out to the, in the pool area, to the lake area or something, this morning, with her coffee. She’ll drink tea or coffee in the morning. To try to kind of sober up. Sometimes we go out together and walk in the outside area. Take Bella out so she can run a little bit and play and then come back in. And then, but maybe she just wasn’t, she’d been sleep-deprived a bit I know because of the way the week’s been going. And this infection thing. She had that on her buttock area. And that’s another thing I told her. With the antibiotics we were taking. They’re really strong antibiotics that drinking alcohol like that’s not good because it depletes the antibiotics and they don’t work. And I was concerned about that because I didn’t want her having this flare back up on her. Because I know how bad these MRSA infections are because I’ve had one on my leg before and one on my arm and now this one.

BR: So let me ask you this. Once we get done collecting our evidence, once we get done collecting statements from other people, once we get done at your house at the scene, processing the scene… 

AF: Yes, sir. 

BR: And if it indicates that you’re not telling the truth today and that there’s something more that happened that you’re not telling us about it, what are you going to say about that?

AF: I would… I don’t know. There’s, an error in the investigation. Or that my memory didn’t, you know, add up to the exact times, or whatever. But that’s all I know. 

BG: Understand how this works. This is not TV. 

AF: I understand.

BG: This is not the First 48. Or NCIS or any of those shows. This time right here, this first initial interview with us, is as Detective Revell said, when you get it out on the table. Because, as I told you earlier, we’re not going to tell you everything we know. We’re not going to tell you everything that we’ve collected. 

AF: I understand. 

BG: But I can tell you that we do know a lot more than what we said and I also can tell you that we have collected quite a few things. 

AF: I understand. 

BG: And when all of that comes out, it’s not going to be no, well I wanted to but I was just scared. Or any of that. I’m telling you, dude, this is the time right now to lay it out. Whether it’s like, you yourself said, you consider yourself a good person. OK, I don’t know you. I don’t know you at all. So who am I to judge? It’s not my place to do that. But all I can do is, just like Detective Revell on the last case he worked with with you, is be straight up with you and let you know that if any good can come out of this, it’s only gonna come with the truth. 

AF: Right and that’s what I’m trying to give you guys is the truth. I’m not trying. I’m giving you the truth. So you know, and that’s what I got to thinking is I’ve been in here this whole time, is now they’re gonna probably assume guilt on me. I’m a prime suspect, I’m sure. I’m the husband. I’ve been there. We’ve had, you know, marital disputes and violence. Her domestic violence and stuff.

BR: So what do you think it looks like?

AF: I understand. I understand solely. That’s why I said I know they’re going to come after me. You know, and maybe I should get a lawyer but I’ve been trying to cooperate for, you know, so we can get onto this and see what happened. I want to know. And I want to know if this Gerald may have had something to do with it. I would hope not but I don’t know. I don’t know the relationship for the last six months. I don’t know. Maybe she had someone else coming over, that’s why she wanted me out of there. I don’t know that it could be these people that have been extorting her for money this week. I’ve been thinking about all these things. And breaking down and crying for six hours here. And that’s the one I’m concerned about. I told Samira, if they’re asking you for three and four thousand dollars for information about a relationship I had, you don’t want to trust these people. I made sure I asked her, you didn’t have them come by the house, did you or anything? Because if they know she’s coming up with that kind of cash from the house that there might be more inside or there might be valuable things inside. And with cars parked out there like that, it draws attention. And she would blow off on me like, you know, with her usual denial thing. I was, like, Samira, you don’t want to mess with these people. I’ve been around bad people. If they’re extorting money and stuff for, you know, whatever it is, they’ll turn on you in a minute. Or if they threaten you if you don’t pay this, I’ll do this, or whatever. So I want to know when you get to the bottom of this, what’s happened.

BR: Well, earlier when I was talking to you, you made the statement that you are the victim in this case.

AF: Not in this case.

BR: That’s what you said, you said…

AF: I said in the case…

BR: You said you were a victim in this case, OK. [AF tries to speak.] In order to be a victim in this case something had to happen. 

AF: No, sir. I did not say victim in this case. I’m talking about the case that’s involved with Samira and I in this full injunction dissolution process and all my friends, anybody whose been around our situation will vouch for that. 

BR: OK.

AF: But then it got turned, that I ended up losing the children, the house and everything. Because instead of becoming the victim, I become the, I guess they turned on me like I wasn’t a good parent or I wasn’t a good father, I wasn’t a good husband. And that’s not at all true. Now I’ve done some behaviour since the divorce which is not usually my character. And some of what I did is almost retaliation or rebellion against maybe Samira a little bit because it’s the stuff she would say and accuse me of. After awhile you get beat down so much and get accused of things, you might as well do it. Or might as well show her and that’s not right. Like my dad taught me growing up that two wrongs don’t make a right. That’s why I didn’t dispose of her personal belongings when she’s accusing me of that, it really hurts me. Because she did mine. You know that. I mean you know the history [indistinct] I’ve told you about. But I didn’t retaliate against that. I didn’t, you know, I realized it’s material things and they can be replaced. But I’m not holding a grudge against everyone or want revenge on that or anything. And hopefully by working things out we can replace some of those things or get it amicably back. So that’s why I say I’m kind of the victim because she’s done all this stuff to me. I mean, I don’t have anybody on my side. I keep trying to get her help, I try to get the system to help me, the police, the judges, the psychological system. Lately here, when she went off a few times, we even, I talked to my friends, my staff about having her Baker Acted. Maybe we could get something done there. But I told her if she only gets held for 72 hours, when she comes out, it’s going to be hell on me. 

BR: OK, here’s the thing. After talking to you today, I’m just going to be honest with you, I believe you’re being somewhat truthful but I don’t believe you’re being 100% truthful.

AF: OK.

BR: I don’t believe you got scratched by your baby. 

AF: OK.

BR: I don’t believe that happened, OK. I don’t believe this sequence of events that happened this morning that you described to us and I just think that, um, like I said, this may be the only opportunity you get to speak with us and right now the time to let’s get it all out. There may not be another time.

AF: Sorry, I don’t know…

BR: It’s up to you. And if you’re truly a good person then you’re going to be completely honest and …

AF: I’ve been honest with you. And that’s why when you said that I’m not the victim here, I hope to God there is no victim here, but I hope to God, I wish I could bring her back or that this was just… When Kendall was saying when the police here didn’t have any idea what they said it was about, um, the custody issue and I was thinking, I hope that was just somebody’s just sick idea of a joke. You know, when he told me about what he heard that she was floating in the pool. And then I got to thinking about it, it might be her, I mean, she’s done some weird, you know, antics and stuff before. I thought this was, um, she was trying to set me up with this custody thing, I take the babies to Panama City, she’d call the police. And then I get in trouble for having the babies. Once this all happened. I didn’t even know, you really get into trouble for that. I didn’t understand the, you know, I’ve never been through this custody thing or whatever to know that that was, you know, a possibility of that, too. So I was like, you know, I hope this isn’t something that she’s doing or that Gerald’s doing or they’re trying to set me up with, evidence that, you know, I took the babies, or something. 

BG: You keep bringing up this Gerald. How long as Gerald been around?

AF: Four years. Four or five years.

BG: Gerald’s been around for four years. And she stuck with you through these, all these four years? Including all of your indiscretions and actions and everything?

AF: When I’m talking about… [BG almost interrupts.] But understand, Gerald he’s no longer kind of my confidant, he’s hers. He sided, kind of in a relationship when you have difficulties, usually friends and that would pick one side or the other. Or they may have been your friend to begin with type-thing. With him, he was, I used to think, kind of neutral. We tried to tell her, you know, Sam, calm down. You know, it’s inappropriate to do… you know, he witnessed her being abusive or violent toward me and he kind of separate, you know, her from me sometimes. He’d tell her it’s inappropriate, Samira, calm down. You don’t need to be doing that to Doc, or whatever. But then the last year or so he’s changed from that. And I kind of got almost a little concerned, you know, the previous guy we had named Juan, he would stay the night with her sometimes. In the guest bedroom and stuff. Or who knows. But that made me a little concerned because it’s not appropriate for another man to be in your house. 

BG: How long have you been married?

AF: Four years. 

BG: Four years?

AF: Um-hmm. And I’d have problems with that just because we, she’d go off on a previous relationship I had before we were married where the woman I was dating got pregnant. And that’s been thrown up in my face for the last four years or more. Um, and I don’t know, I guess some of it’s on my heart feeling guilty that that happened and I take a lot of, obviously…

BG: What time did you get the phone call, you said from Kendall?

AF: I’d been talking to him off and on today. You know, just, kind of apologizing to him for what happened yesterday because she, I told you… 

BG: What time did you get the phone call informing you that she’d been found in the pool?

AF: It was around three something. I remember looking at the phone. And then I tried calling her again and getting a little concerned. 

BG: What time was it that they put the handcuffs on you?

AF: Was it shortly after that? I told him I was going to start getting the babies together and come that way. And he asked if he needed me to come to Panama City and drive us to, you know, to Tallahassee and that. I said I was holding up because I broke down right after he told me. And I think he called back, too, and kind of said it may not be true because he called a friend of his on the police force, or called the police or something and they didn’t get much response.

BG: How much longer after you spoke to him…

AF: So I was hoping it wasn’t true. Then they kind of…

BG [speaking slowly as if to a recalcitrant child]: How much longer after you spoke to him was it that Bay County was putting handcuffs on you? 

AF: Maybe 15, 30 minutes. In that time frame.

BG: In 30 minutes time you hear that your wife, the mother of your children, is dead. 

AF: I didn’t know that. He said that he heard…

BG: Was found in the pool…

AF: Right. And I was going to start at that time, once he called me… He hadn’t called me back yet to verify things and I called and left a message on her phone, still didn’t respond, or everything went right to voicemail. Then I was going to start calling on the way, once I got the babies and I was on the way. I was going to call and see what’s going on.

BG: That’s what I’m trying to figure out. This is the person that you committed the rest of your life to. This is the… 

AF: Right. I understand. 

BG: This the person whose given you two beautiful daughters. And upon hearing that this tragic incident may have occurred, you sitting there waiting on another phone call?

AF: No, wait. I was getting the babies together and my little one was…

BG: Waiting for him…

AF: My little one was asking me, ‘why are you crying, Daddy? Why are you crying?’ I was, like, ‘Baby.’ 

BG: You just said you were waiting for him to call you back. OK. You may have been getting them together or whatever. But what I don’t understand is that 30 minutes time. You could have been 20 minutes down the road. 

AF: No, I was getting them dressed. I didn’t have them. They were still… I just changed…

BG: You were talking about you getting the message that you…

AF: I understand. And I didn’t know for sure at the time she was dead. 

BG: You didn’t know for sure, OK. But you gonna take your time?

AF: No. When you say take my time, I was rushing. If you see the house I have, it has three floors. I had a little one upstairs. Ran down to get my phone where I had it charging and um, you know, Kendall said, Doc, keep your phone charged because he’d heard this. And then I ran back up. I had the baby in diapers trying to get her dressed. And I’m distraught. I’m like, shaking, I don’t know what’s going on here. I’m breaking down trying to get her going. I know that the three year-old is down there playing with a little guitar thing they had. I’m going through their clothes out of the suitcase Samira had packed for them. That’s another thing. She packed up everything last night. Had it there for me—the suitcase, the formula. She had her suitcase out. So we were going to meet up that day. I mean, I guess it would be today. 

BG: Now this is what I don’t understand. 

AF: But that’s what I’m trying to explain here. 

BG: You keep rambling on and on, sir. 

AF: I’m trying to go back and see, I mean…. This is the only close person that’s passed on in my life next to my grandfather. And this close, the only one I’ve ever had this close to pass on…

BG: My point is that…

AF: It’s really upsetting.

BG: My point exactly. If I get a phone call about my family, about my daughter has fallen at school, or whatever, and possibly broke her leg, even before I hang up the phone I’m already up walking towards my car or running.

AF: I understand. And that’s what I was doing. But I have babies to take care of, you know…

BG: 30 minutes later?

AF: It wasn’t 30 minutes. 

BG: You’re walking out of your house and getting met by police.

AF: No, I was loading up the car with the babies. The baby was in the car, ready to go that way and call the police to see what’s going on and Kendall hadn’t heard from him yet either. He was trying to call a guy he knew on the police force to see if he knew what was going on. And that’s all I know from that point on.

BG: I know that people handle situations differently. But I’m just saying this is very…

AF: I don’t know, when I say 15-30 minutes. It may have been… that’s why I was surprised when they come. They just caught me off guard. Because he just called me with that information. I was upset for awhile and trying to, you know, get my, I wanted to stay strong for Hyrah and Skynnah. I’m trying… and he asked… he saw that I broke down on the phone, if he needed to come get me. 

BG: [Indistinct] yes, it’s very peculiar that someone who just lost a wife…

AF: You mean, I wasn’t being [indistinct] I was in a rush state. I was running up and down the stairs trying to get the little one, taken care, got her dressed and then brought her down, getting her in the car…

BG: Are you listening to what you're telling us? You’re wondering if she was stepping out on you or if she was doing this…

AF: What are you talking about?

BG: Or doing that. Or trying to get back at you. About some man you talking about. All of this stuff that you’re wondering and this is your wife that just passed away.

AF: I don’t know what you’re talking about. I didn’t know that she was passed away at that time. 

BG: I’m talking about you sitting here talking about you talking about Gerald or whatever his name is…

AF: Well, that’s what I’m trying to figure out—what had happened during this time that I wasn’t with her. You see where I’m coming from?

BG: No, I don’t.

AF: That’s what I’m trying to figure out. You guys are making… telling me now what’s the [indistinct] that’s happened and I’m trying to figure out what may have happened with her. 

BG: Yeah, this is about the time that you go ahead and break down…

AF: No, no. I’m just telling you it’s really upsetting to me that… and now you guys are pointing the finger at me. 

BG: We haven’t pointed the finger…

AF: Yes, you are. You guys are making out, you know this is a different story, you know, that’s not what happened this morning. You know what and I’m telling you exactly what I know and I’m telling you what I know and the truth. I’m telling you when Kendall called me what happened and the truth. And he knew, he’s your friend, your best friend, he knows when you’re upset and when something happens and he knows that’s my wife and I love her and all I’ve been through, he knows that for sure. And all the stuff that’s happened, um, throughout our marriage because he’s been there through most of it. And even, you know, it was upsetting to him to have to, you know, be a witness when Samira went to jail and stuff. But he had to do it. He said, enough’s enough, Doc. You got to finally, you know, have something, you know, done here or else it’s going to escalate to the point that there is no return. And, um…

BG: Would it surprise you if I told you that your best friend thinks you went to that point of no return?

AF: I don’t know. 

BG: You don’t know if it would surprise you?

AF: No, I don’t know if… I would say it would surprise me but I know, um, I don’t think he would say that because he knows all that I’ve put up with and whether…

BG: He knows all that you put up with, just like Detective Revell said earlier, everybody has a breaking point… 

AF: Yeah, but I don’t…

BG: Your honest friend thought that you put up with, and I’m asking you, would it surprise you if he even said you went to that point of no return? 

AF: It wouldn’t surprise me but in this situation, I don’t believe he would say that. Because I’ve been talking with him today. I explained what happened yesterday with Samira. When she got on the phone with him, I told him about her, um, being in kind of a different, like I told you guys, it was not her usual, um, and that’s what was worrying me. It’s almost like it hurt. She was hurt and depressed. And I told him, you know, we gotta think about it, you know, with you and your wife, if you’ve been shown explicit sexual, say, tape of your wife with somebody else, wouldn’t that bother you? It would be more than just, like, evidence she could use or that kind of thing. But more hurt, hurtful. And um, I said, that’s what happened this week with Samira. But I said we’ve been closer than ever before. But I could tell she’s been hurt, emotionally, you know, more spiritually, just hurt.

BG: Well, you don’t have to worry about that no more. 

AF: No, and that really, really bothers me. That’s what her life ended, was this, um, just extortion and crap going on and just…. 

BG: Lift your left arm up. Lift it up to show me… I’m going to show you the scratch you have on your elbow.

AF: That’s a scar.

BG: That’s a fresh, fresh scratch…

AF: Where? This?

BG: No. That’s your forearm. Lift up your elbow. Lift it up right there. Your thumb is touching it.

AF: That’s a scar. From an ulnar nerve transposition. Ten years ago or more. See, you’re even… I guess maybe I need a lawyer or something if you’re going to start making allegations that I’m, I have scars or marks just like this with the handcuffs. They had me sitting on my hands for 30 minutes there with cuffs on so tight it was, you know, causing me to bleed. This wasn’t so bad on this side. I had my watch on. 

BG: It caused you to bleed… 

AF: What?  

BG: It caused you to bleed?  

AF: Yes. Right there. I mean it just bled out a little bit but it was really, you can see marks still on there. But I couldn’t get, because of the way they put me in the, um, my term is a paddy wagon but a police car or whatever. And they were very forceful when they come up there. I mean, with guns and, um, all that. And I assume… And they, everybody I was talking to there, they were being very distant. They didn’t know anything about Samira’s situation. And they thought it was a custody, um, and that’s all they told me. That it was a custody, that, you know, that it was a Leon County custody of the children, safety of the children situation. I’m like, I want to know, I want to know about my wife. Is she OK? What’s happened with my wife? And they wouldn’t tell me. For two, three hours. Until, like, about, I guess, I don’t know now, four or five hours ago. And then I really lost it. Because then I know it was true and she’s not coming back to me. And I thought about this for six hours in here. Just, I don’t know, what… And I want to know the truth. I really do. [Indistinct] has some closure with this, what happened to my wife? And I told them, I don’t know if I could even live with myself if she tripped on that damn hose and I was, I could… [breaks down] too lazy to roll it up or too easy to put it back where I usually had it. 

BR: Had she ever tripped on the hose before?

AF: I don’t know but it hadn’t been put out like that before. It hasn’t been… usually when I was there at the house living, I kept a tight ship in that place and it was, it would have never been out like that before so… I used to get on Gerald and go on sometimes for leaving stuff out like, you know, he does the work and then he leaves stuff all sitting out or in disarray and I put it up. So, I don’t know… It had never been to a point that, um, I don’t remember Samira telling me about it, or anything. If you want to know that. But I’ve had probably three or four times that I’ve been out there and fell in the pool. I know Samira on one or two occasions has fallen in. One time trying to catch Hyrah from going to the pool. And then she kind of slipped and fell into the pool. Um, that’s all we’ve ever had. It’s around the pool, I remember with this marriage, you know, so…

BR: Well, just so we cover everything let me bring this up. You know her body’s going to get examined. It’s going to be examined, OK?  

AF: Right.

BR: And sometimes during these examinations there’s evidence that’s collected in the body. 

AF: I understand. That’s why if I could see the body…  

BR: Sometimes when there’s an altercation, especially when it’s female male sometimes skin will be underneath the female’s fingernails from the altercation when they’re scratched or hit or whatever else. OK? If there is someone under her fingernails, if there’s some found and it comes back to be your DNA I need to know if this happened this morning, did this happen earlier, or you know, kind of need to know that…

AF: There’s one time yesterday she grabbed at my shirt collar…

BR: Now she wouldn’t get DNA from your shirt collar. 

AF: No, I mean, she grabbed at my shirt collar and got my neck. I could feel it, you know, kind of scratch my neck. 

BR: Right.

AF: I didn’t…

 BR: Right there? 

AF: I think there’s a permanent, like, old scar there from when she scratched me when Kendall was there. Like, because people say that sometimes to me if I shaved good and so they’ll say who scratched you, whatever. I just, you know, don’t get into it. I say…

BR: So you did or didn’t have a scratch there?

AF: I just remember her grabbing my shirt collar one time. I don’t know what it was over. I mean, she really didn’t do the violent thing. It was more like she was verbally, you know, I don’t necessarily say abusive, but hurt, making me feel…

BR: The way she grabbed your shirt, did she scratch your neck? 

AF: Um, it felt like she scratched a little bit but I don’t think, I don’t know, um , that’s only, you know…

BR: And when was that?

AF: And then when we…

BR: When was that?

AF: That was last night. Like, um…

BR: At what point last night? Where were y’all at?

AF: I think we were going into the bedroom and she said, don’t go in there and bother the babies and she grabbed my shirt collar and she’s kind of like that, she gets kind of aggressive more than your average person.

BR: That doesn’t even make any sense.

AF: Yeah, but I mean that’s the only time I remember, I mean, that I remember her doing anything too physically, um, oh like aggressive. So I don’t know if there’d be any… Now when we made love out on the, um, chairs in the, I call it our living room area, um, last night, she’s a little, I don’t know, her, she’s just, I don’t know if it’s a French thing where she kind of grabs my back sometimes, scratch, you know, it wouldn’t, making love and sometimes it hurts.

BR: She did that last night?

AF: Um, I don’t remember it hurting that bit because I had some real bad ones one time and I remember specifically because…

BR: What about last night?

AF: I don’t remember that very well. 

BR: So basically we can conclude that if there is DNA found under her fingernails it’s gonna be from her grabbing your collar. 

AF: Probably. So… I mean, if there is any. I wouldn’t think there would be any. I don’t remember her scratching like to the point of bleeding or anything like that, you know, so… and even like this when the baby did that it just, I put some chapstick on because it didn’t even bleed, it was just stinging a little bit and I put some chapstick on it. 

BG: I hope when the babies get older and they ask you what happened to mommy and you have the opportunity to tell them something better than you telling us.

AF: That’s all I have to say. I wish I knew. And I hope, you know, I’ll avoid telling them the bad stuff she’s done because I don’t want them knowing that. I mean, it’s just, um, you know, the problems we had, or whatever.

BG: Well, it’s not like she would be able to give her side…

AF: I understand, but it’s just I’m not gonna go there. Let them know their mother is a wonderful, beautiful woman and I love her dearly. 

BG: Love her to death, huh?

AF: That term is not appropriate for you to be saying that.  

BG: [Indistinct]

BR: Is it, Dr. Frasch, like we explained before this is it, this is now…

AF: I understand. I’ll give you everything I know. [Indistinct] I try to think back if there’s anything else out of character and this week and I’ve been going through the last 6 hours in my mind. You know, it was kind of strange for her to want me to, even though it wasn’t strange and Gerald comes over and she takes stuff out of the house that is mine and moves stuff or does stuff. So I thought maybe that’s why she didn’t want me there and then she wanted the babies out of there because they were planning on doing something, you know, more intensive stuff and she just didn’t have a babysitter available or she wasn’t feeling good because she was hungover or whatever. And she’d already made these plans with him to do this or whatever.

BR: That doesn’t make you mad.

AF: Yeah, it does make me mad. 

BR: I would think it would. 

AF: It does. You know, um, I was asked earlier today if I can see the body or something. I want to know maybe there’s some foul play involved or whatever. And if Gerald, what the hell is Gerald coming by there, um, and I don’t know if she was up at the time, or what, if the front door was locked, or what. What he may have been doing.

BR: What’s he been doing the last four years he’s been coming by there?

AF: He doesn’t, I don’t think he comes in…

BR: What makes today any different than the last four years?

AF: I don’t know. It just makes a difference in the sense, I haven’t been around. He’s coming around the last nine months. Um, I haven’t been there to know what they do or what’s been going on. I know a lot of times he’s loaded up my stuff and done things and helped her move stuff like out of my closets, out of my, you know, office area and stuff. And, um,…

BR: This interview is concluded at 1:37 AM.